So on some of the religious posts MerlinsFlame was talking about the role of women, and thought that the bible was sexist in favour of men. My opinion was the opposite that there is a natural order of things. My question then (and you guys need to be honest) what has the feminist movement done for women. How do you think it is better or worse, and how does it effect the relationships between men and women in the long run. Are men still confused by it? Has it set us back as women while giving us more options? Its an intricate subject and has had a huge impact on society as a whole, but for better or worse.
speaking just for myself the feminist movement has made a lot of changes regarding issues of women's economic advancement, political equality, & health issues. I have wondered why the american feminist movement focused so much on equality meaning pay while in europe the feminst movement definition of equality tended to focus on issues of health care, insurance, parental leave. I do get a chuckl at the feminist who present the wonderful world of the pastoral vegetarian matriach society versus the cruel city-state patriarchal one. I also find it strange my granfmother Ida was a well known suffregette, civil rights advocate my mother worked all her life and viewed herself as a feminist while my daughter,21, thinks the movement is dead, made up of rigid over educated women who would rather do anything but live in the real world. Oy, if ida was alive she would kick some tush i jus don't know whose. yichel
When I started my career, all women who joined our large company, had to take typing tests---even those with Master's Degrees. All of their entry level jobs consisted of doing administrative jobs. To the contrary, degreed men were started in load bearing positions and quickly moved up the ladder. Slowly that changed. During the equal opportunity days, women were given preferential treatment so that they could make up lost ground. It worked. Now, women can more than hold their own. I submit they could have done the same back in the 60's but they were not given a chance. The feminist movement did help bring about something close to equal opportunity however as can be seen by competitive pay scales, number of women in CEO postions, etc. full equality has not been achieved.
Not to course a fight. It is to simplistic to just say the bible favors men . the bible is diffeent then practices by a religion. However in this week's bible portion, Pinchas, excuse me, the hebrew bible or torah, if you care to read and check. The big issue is the Inheritance of property The Lord has commanded Moses to alot the proprty accordng to size of family and tribe. Th daughters of zepherod are concerned that since both their father and brother died they will be allotted no land to live on. When you read this piece the first thing you notice is the daughters do not come begging. They are requesting their share of the property explaining their reasons "assertively (a modern term that fts). The Eternal without hesitation tells Moses to Allot them equal property and then goes on to explain how it was the women who demonstrated the love of the land while the men cowered. (a pervious reading) yichel
My previous comments still stand. I forgot to answer all of your questions.
Women have not been set back by the movement, in fact just the opposite as I tried to point out.
Has it confused men? To a certain extent, for example, opening doors for women. I am a habitual door opener for women--young and old. The younger women don't even comment, probably if they did they would say something like "look at that old geezer---I don't need his help." Older women still appreciate me opening doors and usually thank me. So, there is some confusion. Also, when I am on business appointments, I always try to spring for the check when I am with a woman associate even though she may make a zillion more bucks than I do. Chaulk some of it up to confusion between generations.
I can see MerlinsFlame point on this. There is a book that my wife has talking about how religion was used to keep women pretty much in check. Can't remember the name of it though. but I believe it was something like " The W omen's Bible"
Personally my experience has been to see the rise of women who tend to be overly out spoken, tenaciously arrogant, and quick to point out a mans duty when they ( women ) don't want to do it.The latter is more of a personal nature than a generalization. I get that a lot at work to.
It seems to me that men have better accepted feminism than women. Feminism was supposed to open your world to all choices, not just to have the big career. Yet, when talking with a group of women, woe unto you if your "personal" choice was to work at home, raising your own family. The startled, sideways looks - and instant atmosphere of revulsion and dare I say it - pity - passes across their faces at warp speed. They all recover, after a moment - but watching it happen has become almost an idle hobby over the years.
I don't think 'anyone' can have it all. Choices are required. I also personally believe that there can only be 1 outside 'big career' in a family. There can be a career, and a job. Careers require far to much time and nurturing to coexist with that other much maligned of late career - raising children. Personally, when I chose to have a child, I wanted that child raised by me, not some nanny or underpaid child care worker. My choice - what was best for me. To bad that my choice was not really respected by "feminists".
Unfortunately, I see a negative of working women reflected in the economy. Prices are now much much higher, as more people in families are working. There was a brief economic advantage in the beginning but the market quickly caught up and took advantage of the situation.
Our daughters and especially our granddaughters are growing up in a world more open to women in the business world and in position of authority than what we grew up in. They can expect and demand more equality in their personal relationships. Some of our feminists have become too radical and embittered but that doesn't change the truths espoused by feminism. Each of us deserve the same respect as human beings and the chance to earn the same amount of money, BTW Women still only earn seventy six cents to a man's dollar in America. Men are still bigger and physically stronger than women and there are many men hitting and beating women to this day. Rape crisis centers are still getting busier. We still have a ways to go to beat the old ways of thinking that MerlinsFlame referred to.
If not for the feminst movement way back when, I would not be sitting here typing this at work. I had a choice- whether to work, where to work etc. So many of the women of the past were held down, held back and made to feel like second class people just because of their gender. Before feminism, women had to get married, had to have someone take care of them, were stuck with the kids, didn't get to play sports etc. While the world is still far from perfect, it is a far better place to be a woman now. Except for some of the Muslim world. When I started to work in the construction industry I was treated like an idiot. And I was working in the office! Men would come in and demand to speak to a man- when I was the estimator etc. That doesn't happen today. We have come a long way baby and we still have far to go, but yes - feminism was a very good thing for me & most of my sisters out there.
As for the Bible - it is my opinion that it was written by men in a completely male dominated time and favors men over women because that was the culture at the time.
In response to Kai.... I was and am a feminist. I too chose to care for my children at home until circumstances out of my control dictated that I had to support the family. I believed then and believe now that that choice is a very feminist one.
There were and are many different feminists. Many had the radical idea that mothering (nowadays we would call it parenting) was a job .. a career even, that should be respected as the single most important job in our society. Their incredibly radical idea was that these stay at home mothers should be paid for their efforts. That idea went nowhere.
Childcare is still one of the lowest paid professions in our culture. How well we pay for a job reflects our respect for it which says little for our level of regard for that all important care.
I think many women who were in the forefront of those going out to work felt that they had to justify leaving their children with others and some went too far in the opposite direction, openly wondering why all women wouldn't choose to go out to work instead of staying at home. These women were not by definition feminists and feminists shouldn't be judged by them.
Feminists today work for and have worked for things like the family leave act which insures that women and/or men, do not lose their jobs when they stay home to give their babies a good start in life. (Thanks to the laws in California and Apple's generous maternal/paternal leave policies, my son and his wife are able to stay at home with their new daughter for a good amount of time.) Feminists are also working for better wages for childcare workers and higher standards for the profession. I would say that the largest feminist efforts now concern health and family issues.
Many of us work to better the cause of women nowadays without having to refer to our selves as feminists. Thanks to shock jocks like Limbaugh, feminists in some circles are considered a joke but I know of no family that says to their daughters, "I hope you get out in the world and can't make as much money as your brothers and if you choose to stay home and parent children, I hope you will not be respected for it." Perhaps those who think that we should be "subject" to our husbands would think in such a manner but I have not heard it.
