Message 658 of 1017

Scientific Dogma


There is no such thing as scientific dogma.

Anybody who teaches science as dogma is teaching bad science. There is, unfortunately, a very great deal of bad science teaching.

Why, then, do scientists seem so intolerant of beliefs which contradict the generally accepted science? Why do astronomers reject Velikovsky’s theories? Why is astrology anathema to science? Why are biologists appalled by the notion that "Creation Science" should be taught in schools? In what way do these attitudes differ from dogma?

The answer is that there is a big difference between "faith" and the sort of thing that science cares about. If you expect the sun to appear in the sky tomorrow, or alternatively that enough light will penetrate the clouds to illuminate the roads, countryside, and streets, would you say this expectation is based upon "faith"? You know perfectly well that for all reasonable purposes it is just simply true. The same thing goes for the laws of physics, chemistry, and biology, even when for extraordinary cases their predictions are counter-intuitive. For a case in point, consider the notion that the Earth is round. For all the practical purposes of a sane person on foot, horseback, or sailboat the Earth is a pretty good approximation to flat. You need extraordinary speeds, or immensely time-consuming voyages, to care about the difference. But it was in fact quite well known before Columbus that the Earth is round.

It makes no difference to a farmer whether or not the Sun goes round the Earth or the Earth rotates and goes round the Sun. But no farmer who has been to school in America would admit to ignorance or disbelief in the prevailing scientific view. By contrast, the fact of Natural Selection, the core of Darwin's theory, has an impact upon every farmer or gardener that uses pesticides or antibiotics. It predicts that the target population will become resistant to the poisons. How many farmers do you suppose there are who reject Darwin's theory of evolution?

Dogma in religion is the sort of thing that brings penalties of death or excommunication if you contradict it with a new theory. Science demands of your new theory only that you prove it fits the known facts (including those you can prove happened in your laboratory, or can document that you discovered and did not fake them historically) better than the existing body of theories. If you succeed in doing this, you are praised in proportion to the extent of the change. Isaac Newton showed that the observations of the solar system could be predicted by the mathematics of his laws of forces, and his equation for the force of the gravitational attraction of two bodies. This abolished the entire mental edifice of "the heavenly spheres" which had seemed a pretty good approximation since Aristotle’s time. Then Einstein predicted certain tiny discrepancies between Newtonian calculations and experiment, based upon a radical restructuring of the framework of measurement, which he called "space-time", and the necessity that the speed of light should be the same for all observers. Thus his "relativity" theories explained some known problems, and correctly predicted others, in the existing scientific theory. Einstein’s fame does not eclipse Newton’s, although Newton’s explanations are technically obsolete. We know that Newton’s laws are good enough for piloting slow-moving objects like spacecraft, even although they are hopelessly inadequate for sub-atomic particles in a synchrotron.

The trouble with astrology, Velikovsky, most "miracles", and the "religious fundamentalist" views of science, is that they have all been shown to be hopelessly contradictory to well known facts. Asking "well, couldn’t Almighty God have made that statue’s eyes weep?" leads to the response "theoretically, yes, but it’s inconsistent with all well-established theories and observations of (God's) Nature." Or more briefly, "Yes, but if there is a God, She just doesn’t do that."

In other words, it’s difficult to overthrow established religious or political dogma, because the authorities discourage or forbid such new ideas. It’s difficult to overthrow established scientific theories, because the evidence for them has been subjected to severe scrutiny, and so will be the evidence for a new theory. But if "scientific" authorities, or governments who fund science, or schools where science is supposed to be taught, use the methods of religion to suppress politically unpopular scientific ideas, or to reinforce popular ones, science is weakened. It happened to biology in the Soviet Union.

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Replies 1 - 10 of 21
I don't think this subject should be brought up on a group site entitled "Freedom Matters". Why are people always "preaching" about their view of the environment around them, and especially on this site!!!
Can't you take your subject to a site a bit mor eappropriate for this type of discussion? Perhaps a site such as Astronomy or Science Teachers or Cosmology Matters would be better suited for this discussion.
What does science have to do with "freedom"?
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4 months ago
What does science have to do with "freedom"? Scott

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I haven't had time to read the message with any focus.
Science has verything to with freedom.
If a scientist cannot research , formulate and publish an idea without fear ...then science and all human knowledge stagnates and retreats.

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4 months ago
Even with scientists being selfish with their theories, they can at least say that this or that is true for the moment, and realize that with new information, there well could be new theories and truths. There can be no new ideas with religion, becuase it is based on the idea that all things are as they are because of a divine. This was one of the main reasons I had trouble with regular Christian religion growing up. I have to have a spiritual belief that will not go against science and the world around me and one that will not cop out with "We don't know, but God does." I like the idea that science is always working to know more, and that it looks at questions with an eye toward solving them.
Thank you LLL for a great post.
Astrid
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4 months ago
In other words, it’s difficult to overthrow established religious or political dogma, because the authorities discourage or forbid such new ideas. LLL

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Wonder why religions are the ones to scream when something new in science comes along?
Seems they have a history of maintaining what they think they know instead of moving forward.

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4 months ago
Q: Why am (I) "preaching" about (my) view of the environment around (me), and especially on this site?

A: Because you preach yours. I thought it would be OK for me too.

Which begs the question, why don't you want my opinion heard scott? Now I know how the Diexie Chicks and Valerie Plame felt. You religious righters' are such meanies . . .

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4 months ago
LLL- I was wondering how this would be received. It seems to me that the people who push religious belief over science distort the meaning of the word theory. Thanks for a nicely worded post
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4 months ago
SURELY you guys realize that I was being tongue in cheek to mention LLL not posting scientific subjects on this group. As you recall, I was chastised for posting "religious" subjects here, and told of numerous other groups where my comments would be , shall we say "welcomed".
I didn't like the whole "tone" of that so I decided to play a bit of the same game with the other most frequently posted subject.
I'm havin a ball !!! (Paraphrase of trippin's "wots having fun" comment. LOL)

Anyway, I thought for sure that LLL would return with the idea that science aims to get at the "truth" and the truth sets us all "free", hense - Freedom Matters! :>)

Finally: God so LOVED the world (that means you individually) that He sent His only begotten Son (that means Jesus) that if you will believe in him you will not perish, but will gain everlasting life.

If the Son shall set you "free" you shall be free INDEED!!!
John 8:36 -- Freedom Matters :>)
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4 months ago
So what about global warming? I'd bet you believe we caused that because Al Gore said so. That isn't politics, thats the pursuit of profit.
I wouldn't even bring religion into it since most of it's early teachings were meant as symbolism, not reality.
TJ
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4 months ago
I usually don't read such long posts unless they are something I'm fairly interested in. Not being a scientist doesn't mean I'm not interested in it, however, when a post is so long and for me, I choose not to read it. Further conversation about the subject may lead me to go back and read it. None of this means you shouldn't post your views here. This a place that I believe stands for freedom, period.

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4 months ago
I should preview my posts! When I wrote the words "..."for me"...I meant to add the word "difficult".
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4 months ago
Replies 1 - 10 of 21