After reading that the Christian Right feels the Bible is too liberal and that they would like to change it , I was curious and googled that question. 211,000,000 entries !. Most state that it has changed many times and even in many countries through the centuries. . Modified by self interests etc. We know that diff religious folks pick and choose quotes for their own ends and seemingly there are conflicting passages. Does this shake your confidence in it?
yeh Birdie,on a different thread that was brought up and how "clear radio channels" banned the play of Imagine.i boycotted the oldies stations that went to clear channel(right wing owned stations)
cajunsnake: "The only way to know for sure is to die....we all have a 50-50 chance of being right."
That's not quite accurate. One "side" is surely wrong, but both can be. :-) Also, if I'm right, I won't know about it after I'm dead because I'll have ceased to exist.
Still, unless people are actin' stupid based on beliefs...like causing material harm to people who don't conform to Brand X belief...it doesn't really matter. I enjoy debate (and even a bit of cyber-fisticuffs from time to time), but I honestly can't think of a single instance where anybody's mind was changed about belief via argument. Maybe the way they express their views, but not their core beliefs.
As far as the Bible being real,...meh. It's a sometimes interesting collection of much-translated ancient writings and isn't (or shouldn't be) sacred in itself. Bible idolatry leads to actual abuse as well as such anti-intellectual nonsense as "If the Bible told me Jonah swallowed the whale, I'd believe it!" If the assorted gods people believe in didn't mean for the latter to use their brains, they wouldn't have provided them.
That is also why I do enjoy this group along with other groups I do tend to stick around with. There may be flair up once in a while, but everyone is given the opportunity to be heard (so to speak). With the exceptions of those who firmly believe that everyone else is at fault and that they are perfect now matter how far off of the subject they may get. I know many of us have come across folks that like and that their point of view is the only point of view and if you do not agree you have to make sure that you’re wearing flame proof underwear.
Decent, healthy discussions including agreeing to disagree but also pressing the idea that no matter whom you may be as long as name calling is not involved or getting into arguments you do get to learn from others. You may never agree with someone's point of view, but at least you get to discuss that topic without having to feel like you also have to justify your existence along the way. As all of us has also learned over time some folks are no better than complete idiots, and then they are giving complete idiots a bad name.
One thing I have noticed, healthy discussions are encouraged along with most everyone does have a valid point of view as long as they stay level-headed with their subject. I know that I have noticed it helps greatly when you do need to explain how you have come up with something that tends not to be the norm with someone. Trying to politely explain how you come up with an idea goes a very long way in helping others understand why you use something that was why you use it.
The best example off the top of my head is when I use Xian instead of always going with Christian. If you had seen my answer to the usage I tried to make sure I know the difference between the whack jobs verses those who do their best to live up to the ideals presented in trying to live as a good person.
One thing that the bible tends to be for me is a book of history, with stories written by and about ordinary men (and women) finding their self in extraordinary circumstances. When something happens that is well beyond their comprehension it become an act of deity (or God if you like). This becomes their way to explain events that transpired that could have happened within a few hours to days, weeks, months or even years. The creation story, the great flood and a few other huge moments in time are universal stories going back who really knows when but when trying to compare on belief system with another the writings from the "Elders" tend to be very universal.
There is a saying that tends to ring true in most cases, today's (or yesterday's) mythologies tend to become future scientific facts. Today's Western Medicine is a great example of what was yesterday's Witchcraft (or mythologies) has now become a Scientific Facts. Being a factual book or work of older mythologies is something that can be debated (as well as being respectful with all ideas) until the end of mankind as we know it. But reading and living that book helps someone live easier then who’s to say that the book is a universal truth or a matter of fiction.
All of that is really only for each person to decide for their own self, not really something that should be debated until the end of time. The reason is simple there will always be those who do believe as well as those who will always doubt that written word.
Wolf, I agree about the civil discussions. Been on others where some people are living examples of why others should not have children.
What I've found, is that in some cases, the experts of today, try and get into the heads of those who lived in Biblical times. One example, was a series on the History Channel dealing with the Bible and the parting of the Red Sea. The expert explained that what the ancients meant was the Reed Sea. This would work to prove his argument, but I think it was more because he couldn't explain it any other way.
But something I've thought of for a long time, and especially when it's mentioned how many times the Bible has been translated. What about books that lead other faiths? I know that translating, especially to English, words can be lost. I'm wondering, just for my own info, if the same would be true for Buddism, Hinduism and the like.
I agree though, it's up to each of us to find our own path. For me it's Christianity, I know CA is pagan :).
I know that most of the time people would point to the bible and carp about how many times it is has been rewritten, and what we are lacking today are those scholars to accurately translate Hebrew to today's Modern English. Also when the book has been rewritten as many times as what is known, you really need to start with the understanding of the Ancient Hebrew language and with dozens of dialects that is part of the Ancient Hebrew.
The hardest part in finally finding the Spiritual Path that you are the most comfortable with what your own free will would chose that one particular path over the other paths that happen to be similar. In some cases that answer is right there in from of you to make things easier in the long run. Luckily most of us are at age range to solidify that path you would want to walk. Outside the recent surge to understand you are also a part of something bigger. There are groups that do a great job of reclaiming the less violent parts of the long deep dark past.
In almost all reference the reclaiming of the Pagan Ways, the revival of Witchcraft (better known as herbalism). But with things like that along with a strong support team (aka Chain of Command) the Reclamation of the Pagan/Wiccan/Witchcraft to name a few all fairly well came into their own some 50-odd years ago.
The next youngest belief system is in essence only 2000 years old and from an outsiders view of the Xian faith you tend to find it even more splintered today than anything in the System's Path. Next in line are the teachings of Buddha. Buddhism seems to thrive better today that in the past. The Muslim/Islamic teachings no matter how many splinter factions that seem to develop since the year 2000C.E. The Chinese and Japanese developed in similar fashion and yet are as different as day and night when it comes to the people.
The above is only just a tiny handful of different Spiritual Paths but when trying to compare different belief's both the Chinese and Ancient Egyptians are probably the oldest known belief system. Even with Judaism (Ancient Jewish) practices topping any list as quite probably the oldest Religions/Belief System known in use today.
Overall there is really no good to great way to discuss one book to the exclusion of all other books that are as old if not older without having sometimes the idea pops up and asks about those other books.
Snow Wolf you said"I know that most of the time people would point to the bible and carp about how many times it is has been rewritten, and what we are lacking today are those scholars to accurately translate Hebrew to today's Modern English. Also when the book has been rewritten as many times as what is known, you really need to start with the understanding of the Ancient Hebrew language and with dozens of dialects that is part of the Ancient Hebrew." partialy right,the earliest writings and has been proven by the Dead sea scrolls,written in Hebrew.pick up a copy of the Amplified Bible it will be up to 50% thicker,two reasons is its a translation from Hebrew and Greek text.but... a Greek word would have dozens of meanings which the translation would try to find the words to the closest meaning,thats how come some have two different meanings of baptism. i've mentioned it before about one of the best Literary proffesors(IMHO) Northrup Frye and his interpitation,where he wasn't a minister or a Bible scholar.what he mentioned was that the Bible is one of the greatest literary work there is,and that most of whats written probably isn't true,but the question was asked if he believed in God and he said yes.pretty much the way i believe.i have always had a problem with those that took what is written as "their manifesto",whereas you have to tell others that is what you have to abide by. funny how many so called righteous bastards will have a Bible in one hand and a sack of coin in the other and tell others they are sinners. thats the reason those words of BS&T song ring so true to me.i can't figure out why so a$$holes on both sides of the equation have to argue over others religion or believes.
My former husband was a biblical scholar in his younger years. He was intense enough with it that one day he realized totally derailed himself because he had focused his belief on the inerrancy of the Bible. While I have read it from cover to cover a few times in a variety of translations, I have never really gotten into the difference between word vs thought translations nor the various writers, the dates when the books were written (it is easy to be prophetic when the writings were created a few hundred years after the event they were predicting) nor the meanderings of the language in which the various books were written. However, having listened to (his) lectures (rants) on the book that eventually drove him right out of Christianity (in his mind) I know that the book is as much of a curse as a blessing regarding those who cling to it like a drowning man to chunk of wood.
Only the OT started out in ancient Hebrew, the NT was all first written in Greek. We have problems with Hebrew because it was written with diacritical marks. The people living at the time knew what went there, we often don't. And because language is the repository of culture we don't necessarily interpret the way the people at the time would have because we have lost contact with that culture and we are interpreting the writings in a way that makes sense in our cultural context. I have Orthodox Jewish friends who are lucky not to be bald from pulling out their hair over the way Christians use and interpret Jewish scripture when they really don't have a clear understanding of them. My friends who went to Yeshiva all tell me that, the 10 commandments don't say, you shall not kill, they say, you shall not murder, which is an very different thing.
As long as one can understand that these are writings designed to provide guideposts and are not immutable truth for all time then we're all good. The problem is that there are so many writings from so many wisdom traditions with some of the material being mutually contradictory someone is going to be wrong. No one has all the "truth." My brother believes that when he dies he is dead, his wife believes in heaven, he has a fundamentalist daughter who can probably name the street number of her eventual home in the afterlife. I find that there is no loss of energy in the universe, merely a transformation of it and my "heaven" is more physics oriented, that the energy pattern that is CA is merely transformed into something else in the multiverse. What happens after death I do not pretend to know, nor do I pretend to comprehend what people call "God" and which may as easily be the sentient universe.
As to the term Xtian - my mother was a devout Christian and used the term all the time. I have always considered it her shorthand.
Some of the greatest works in world history has always caused some sort of controversy this also includes fiction as well. Over the ages a ton of money and time has been spent trying to prove or disprove various accounts from the bible. But the same thing can be said about the story of Atlantis, the earliest know reference comes from Homer in one of his many stories.
Did those events (from the bible) actually transpire to include the sinking into the ocean of Atlantis, personally I do not know that for a fact. To date nothing has been proven conclusive, including the Shroud of Turin. Even with all the best tools available science has only proven the shroud to be some 500 year old. Because of the type of material used to include the image on the shroud even the best minds on both sides of the issue there can not really prove or disprove that the shroud is real or one of the greatest forgeries of all time. The only thing that both sides do agree on is that in time maybe once and for the rest of time science may have the ability to prove or disprove with any accuracy the true age of the shroud.
No one has the ultimate answers with the bible, but if Rome would open the vaults to the wealth of documents that are kept there some of the greatest questions that has come from biblical studies actually may be answered. Also the case may be that there is enough in those vaults to give both science and biblical scholars a time and place to prove or disprove some of the stories from the bible. To date only a select few have actually seen some of the things down in the vaults, but as far as I know no one person or team has had unlimited access to what may actually be down there. Is there undisputed proof of some of the events? The only answer I can come up with is that there could be proof of something, what it is becomes a much larger question.
Sometimes when I use to do my own anti-Xian rants (luckily I am finally over that stage of my life, but some people seem to never get over being anti-Xian and that tends to be a bit sad), I use to talk about the Cthulhu stories which happens to be pure fiction by Lovecraft. But I use to go on and on that if one has enough people to actually believe in something (Cthulhu happened to be the best example I had on hand) that they could possibility make it something of a reality. I know the question that comes to mind is something along the lines of "Fictional tales becoming a reality?" The Cthulhu stories tell of the ultimate evil with no redeeming values what so ever with it, it does become the ultimate nightmare for good people. For the folks who do believe in angels and believe that they can actually see them, I tend to believe that if I put enough energy to it I can see and feel the presence of spooks (and I do not mean the racial slur for those who do not have the openness that most folks here do have). One thing I am certain over that it was the spooks that are a part of the Cthulhu stories that caused the accident that I know without quick thinking on my part could have permanently maimed me or at worse could have killed me.
The last greatest mystery with the body human happens to be our minds. We know through stories from the bible along with real-life examples just how powerful prayer can be, for Witches and most Pagans alike our version of prayer is in most cases a ritual. That is not always true when it comes to rituals for some folks they do rituals differently than any type of a some-what formal occasion. Something to think about for the folks who do attend services at the church of their choice, as is it different folks different versions of the type of church it may be (does not matter if your Catholic, Baptist, or a Holy Roller for example) the services within that branch of Xian belief are a ritual.
We do know that through the prayer/rituals done in proven cases can and has healed some folks but has also failed for other people. Both through our system of belief as well as modern science have struggled as to why this works for some folks but not for others. I tend to reject the idea presented that it is a matter of your faith, but I do tend to stay more open to the idea on how open you are in accepting the energies that CA described earlier. But the same question also applies with Herbs and Herbalism, why do some folks heal using age old folkloric remedies while with others their body actually rejects almost any type of herb (no matter what form) it come from? The same basic question does apply with reading the bible, why do some folks feel comfort when reading passages while others (like myself) wind up with more questions than possible answers.
As some folks shown that they agree with what I have said about their belief along with it be your own personal choice and no one should ever have the power to take that away from you, and really no one should question your chosen path toward your Spiritual Enlightenment. The bible for those who do believe that the book shows the ultimate truth, should never be questioned by those who do take that chosen path. Really it is not a matter of debate, for everyone who has read that book from cover to cover does take something from the book. It does not matter what spiritual path you follow but you do pick something up from reading it. That book was written in such a way that it open to different interpretations by any one who has read it, but through the teachings from that book it also make it clear that it should never be used to subjugate the people with it for some who do try full miss that point.
That book was meant to educate and nothing more, there is a reason why nearly everyone does translate in their own mind and thoughts differently than the written word. That is why there tends to be many different versions of the book, that is also why it was very hard to translate from ancient Hebrew (along with the varied dialects) into a language of today. As far as I have found there is not one single person alive today that could translate all the different versions of Hebrew into the different known versions of what we call English. Is there a heaven/hell/purgatory, or is there a Summerland, or are there 72 virgins? The only thing science has proven about the human body is that it is made up of water, precious metals along with other materials along with various forms of energies. Is there a soul somewhere in there? Depends upon your belief, but we do know science can not prove or disprove either way. We also know that the body does die, but the big unknown it what does happen to the energies from that body? It has been proven that our energies do not die, but the mystery remains on what does happen to those energies when the body ceases to exist? Even with the times of when verses and chapters of when it was originally written the bible make an attempt to give an answer but are those energies your soul, your spirit, or something else? I know that I do not have the answer to that question, even as advanced as mankind has "become" that ultimate answer is well beyond our understanding and still eludes being answered even some 2000+ year later. The only thing I do understand about the bible is there is a type of agreement that it does happen to be one of the greatest literary achievements of all time along with other works and writings.
