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"Why does anyone complain at all about how much debt their grandchildren have to repay?" Because I give a damn about how my Granddchildren will have to struggle. I see this already with one of my daughters.

Honoring our ancestors and working for a better future is simply the sane thing to do.

You're not quite allowing folks to follow what you mean, hooda ..... word-bytes without much of a thread to follow. I'm not saying you're wrong .... I see some truths .... they're just scattered with no solid examples ... .therefore ineffective and ultimately irrelevant.

This is a very interesting turn of events. A major Democrat-backed piece of crap legislation: "States would not be allowed to enforce consumer protection laws on national banks that are stronger than those at the federal level. All banks would need to do, then, is water down regulation at the top, rather than in each state legislature"

This "reach-around" piece of legislation was prevented because its Author, Ms. Bean .... has the swine flu. Now, I hate to see anyone suffer from illness. However, swine flu seems like some kind of poetic justice for the piggies pimping for the big banks.

Read more at: view link

Dear Bunnnnies,

I too care very much about what my children and future grandchildren inherit, good and bad. Please read on.

Keep in mind LLL's link and that we have rebounded from worse.

The point I was making is that the Great depression and rebound occured when we had no global competitors, economically or militarily.

That's changed and those competitors are in a position to snatch up the remains of this country like a not so hostile corporate takeover should our economic system completely collapse. The potential for such would make the business of buying up bargain basement discount houses look like child's play.

I do not agree with bailing out corporations but we use a different economy than what we did in '42. So the bailout isn't really about corporate wellfare, as it is about keeping money in motion.

Check out the "velocity of money" for starters. A fundemental economics principle view link

The entry under "Illustrations" about the Farmer and the mechanic hint at the complexity of our country's real economics.

SO.. when I was saying, "Why does anyone complain...", what I was really eluding to was the notion or question, "Why aren't we more grateful for our country being in the position that it is this very minute, debt and all?"

Okaaay, hooda. This was so far over my head, I missed your point. I think I'm beginning to grasp what you're saying ~ and I appreciate your "velocity of money" 101 and the history lesson from you and LLL.

from hooda:
"I should add that I'm referring specifically to bailout debt and how it applies to the phenomenon that adding good debt really can help correct for bad debt--if the antogonists would kindly step aside long enough for the good debt to grow back the economy.

SO.. when I was saying, "Why does anyone complain...", what I was really eluding to was the notion or question, "Why aren't we more grateful for our country being in the position that it is this very minute, debt and all?"

Reading this as one post .... it's beginning to make sense to me.

If I'm understanding this correctly .... are you saying it's less about the intrinsic "worth" of the money than how looking at how it turns over (like seats at a restaurant). If so, I'm going to have to chew on this .... tomorrow .... after coffee. It's a whole new concept for me.

It is funny that Keating went jail when the S & L scandal occurred. When the current market crash occurred, and the whole economy went to hell none of the bankers even got fired. Instead they got bailed out and then some griped about he restrictions that were attached to it. It just goes to prove that old rule of economics, there are truly economies of scale. What Keating did was on the micro level and even small mminds could grasp it. What the Bankers and Merryl, Lynch pulled off was on such a massive worldwide scale that it was impossible for prosecutors to grasp it.

YES Bunnnnies! Your restaurant turnover is a great analogy. I'm so impressed. You caught on sooo much faster than me. I've chewed on this for twelve years and it finally started sinking in a year or two ago.

Are you ready for the next baby step? lol

Under our non-zero game model economy, debt becomes less noticeable once money literally gets moving again. Some describe it as evaporating but I think a better term is debt becomes "emulsified" or absorbed by its compliment healthy turnover rate.

We are a nation of misconceptions about money. This isn't necessarily a bad thing. I believe this works as a checks and balance to keep "the players" (Wall street and the banks) from going up in flames from too much "velocity" Imagine if every citizen knew how too play the market for all it's worth. At any rate, in our materialist culture we benefit from Wall street playing us at 'rational' levels. 'Rational' being an economic principle for another day.

The unemploymnet rate is up not because we have more debt but because money isn't "moving". A problem we are facing now is that we_the_people are emotionally sadled by our materialism, and many of us are learning or trying to let go of our dependancy on owning 'stuff'. Unfortunately this new trend of pursuing less materialism is keeping the economy from taking off again, that, and money still is suffering a bit from being bottlencked over the recent economic trainwrecks. In theory, there is no limit to how much debt we could absorbed and remain prosperous.

"In theory" we can travel the speed of light as well, but there's a sadistic tradeoff... (just like having too much money) lol

Alrighty then, hooda .... I thought I was just too stupid to understand what you were saying. I had to pay attention .... a lot, lol.

"Under our non-zero game model economy, debt becomes less noticeable once money literally gets moving again. Some describe it as evaporating but I think a better term is debt becomes "emulsified" or absorbed by its compliment healthy turnover rate ..... In theory" we can travel the speed of light as well, but there's a sadistic tradeoff... (just like having too much money) lol "

"emulsified" .... works as long as there is enough non-toxic stuff in the mix, eh? Brilliant concept, hooda!

Sorta goes along with how things are speeding up (in general). Reckon if there are folks smart enough to figure this stuff out, then there must be folks who are working this phenomenon for all it's worth (which you've pointed out.

I'm still chewing .... and busy studying the deregulations ....started by Reagan that have brought us to this time and place in financial history.

Folks may be interested in a show airing tonight: Frontline (PBS) is having what is supposed to be a ground-breaking show on why the financial meltdown happened ... and one of its big reasons.

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You soooo bring up a good point, galivantstom. Is this behavior simply becoming so common, it's now accepted? Wow ... what a thought.

Maybe I'm the being the stupid one now, but seems to me that we erred in giving the money to the Wall Street without "terms" . If you and I go to the bank and borrow money, the stipulations on us are much greater than those of the banks. They are back to their old tricks and ripping us off again!

We need finance reform now! We used to put people in jail and call them "loan sharks" for this behavior!

No, not even close to stupid, torry. You're exactly right. Money should have come with terms, over-sight and we need them old fashioned FDR regulations back.

I'm gonna visualize some really famous country, pop or blues song writer coming up with a song about "puttin' the FDR back on the Streets .... Wall Streets, that is" .... or something like that.