groups

Inappropriate for the group.

". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened
that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended
by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be
refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I
soon became a thorough Deist."
Franklin

"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when
it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so
that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power,
'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." -- Benjamin
Franklin, 2000_Years_of_Disbelief by James A. Haught

"Religion I found to be without any tendency to inspire, promote, or
confirm morality, serves principally to divide us and make us
unfriendly to one another."--Benjamin Franklin

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."--Benjamin
Franklin, Poor_Richard, 1758

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."--Benjamin Franklin

Say nothing of my religion. It is known to my god and myself alone.
-- Thomas Jefferson

Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of
every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual.
State churches that use government power to support themselves and
force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil
rights. Moreover, state support of the church tends to make the clergy
unresponsive to the people and leads to corruption within religion.
Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore,
is absolutely essential in a free society.

We have solved ... the great and interesting question whether freedom
of religion is compatible with order in government and obedience to the
laws. And we have experienced the quiet as well as the comfort which
results from leaving every one to profess freely and openly those
principles of religion which are the inductions of his own reason and
the serious convictions of his own inquiries.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to the Virginia Baptists (1808)

Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction
of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet
we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the
effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half
hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"... I am not afraid of priests. They have tried upon me all their
various batteries of pious whining, hypocritical canting, lying and
slandering. I have contemplated their order from the Magi of the East
to the Saints of the West and I have found no difference of character,
but of more or less caution, in proportion to their information or
ignorance on whom their interested duperies were to be played off.
Their sway in New England is indeed formidable. No mind beyond
mediocrity dares there to develop itself."

Jefferson

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people
maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of
ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always
avail themselves for their own purposes."

-Thomas Jefferson

What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on
society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual
tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they
have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no
instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people.
Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an
established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government,
instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."

Madison

. . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on
the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of
miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern
part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in
favor of the rights of mankind."

Adams

The 1796 treaty with Tripoli, negotiations begun under Washington and
signed by Adams states:

[As] the government of the United States of America is not in any
sense founded on the Christian Religion

"Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and
irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause.
Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which
are caused by the difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the
most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be depreciated. I
was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked
the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every
denomination so far that we should never again see the religious
disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society."
George Washington - letter to Edward
Newenham, 1792

John Leland (1754-1841) was a Baptist preacher whose life involved
writing about and preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ and about the
proper relationship between religion and government. In the latter
passion, Leland agreed with the position of Thomas Jefferson and James
Madison, both of whom he knew personally. Leland spent approximately 14
years in Virginia from 1776 to 1790-91. He was a major leader of the
Baptists in Virginia. He helped Madison by rounding up support for the
defeat of the assessment bill in Virginia in 1784-86, and by supporting
the ratification of the new constitution (only after being assured
that Madison did favor the addition of a bill of rights), He worked to
get Madison elected (over Patrick Henry's hand-picked James Monroe) to
the House of Representatives of the First Federal Congress. He returned
to his home state of Massachusetts in the winter of 1790-91, where he
remained an active minister and champion of separation of church and
state and disestablishment till his death in 1841. He wrote articles
against establishment while in Massachusetts and testified before the
Massachusetts legislature on at least one occasion.

Research by Jim Allison
Excerpt from July 4th Oration by John Leland, July 5, 1802.

[emphasis added]

. . . Disdain mean suspicion, but cherish manly jealousy; be always
jealous of your liberty, your rights. Nip the first bud of intrusion on
your constitution. Be not devoted to men; let measures be your object,
and estimate men according to the measures they pursue. Never promote
men who seek after a state-established religion; it is spiritual
tyranny--the worst of despotism. It is turnpiking the way to heaven by
human law, in order to establish ministerial gates to collect toll. It
converts religion into a principle of state policy, and the gospel into
merchandise. Heaven forbids the bans of marriage between church and
state; their embraces therefore, must be unlawful. Guard against those
men who make a great noise about religion, in choosing representatives.
It is electioneering. If they knew the nature and worth of religion,
they would not debauch it to such shameful purposes. If pure religion
is the criterion to denominate candidates, those who make a noise about
it must be rejected; for their wrangle about it, proves that they are
void of it. Let honesty, talents and quick despatch, characterise the
men of your choice. Such men will have a sympathy with their
constituents, and will be willing to come to the light, that their
deeds may be examined. . . .
Source of Information:

Excerpt from "July 4th Oration by John Leland, July 5, 1802". The
Writings of John Leland, Edited by L.F. Greene, Arno Press & The New
York Times New York (1969) pp.260-270) Originally published as: The
Writings Of The Late Elder John Leland Including Some Events In His
Life, Written By Himself, With Additional Sketches &c. By Miss L.F.
Greene, Lanesboro, Mass. Printed By G.W. Wood, 29 Gold Street, New York
1845. Nedstat Counter

On what basis? Looking at some of the other disscussions posted, I see no differance. but then again..... Everyone thinks differently. It's posted on my website and "No One " can take that away from me there. Guess that's what makes America Great! The exchange of ideas.

What was Inappropriate? You said it was explain why? Seems like a fair question to me.

Much that you have quoted by some of the founding fathers were taken out of context and changed. But that has always been by those liberal re=writers of American history and the humanist movement

By the way... Show me in the Constitution where there is Seperation of Church and State? You won't find it. It was pushed in the early 20th Century by the ACLU whose founder was a communist

Frankly, this appears to be a neo-con political screed having nothing to do with Becoming a Spiritual Adult. Where are the moderators?

Jerry, most of our founders were Deists, not Christians. John Adams and John Quincy Adams were both Unitarian. The quotations are accurate but to the zealot I expect no concession. It is no accident they called this period the age of reason.

Can't speak for anybody else, but I agree with Celtic. Looks like a topic I will no longer visit:-)

Jessica

Okay, one more quotation, just for Jerry;-)

"The national government will maintain and defend the
foundations on which the power of our nation rests. It will offer
strong protection to Christianity as the very basis of our collective
morality. Today Christians stand at the head of our country. We want to
fill our culture again with the Christian spirit. We want to burn out
all the recent immoral developments in literature, in the theatre, and
in the press — in short, we want to burn out the poison of immorality
which has entered into our whole life and culture as a result of
LIBERAL excess during the past years"
— Adolph Hitler (Taken from The
Speeches of Adolph Hitler, 1922-1939, Vol. 1, Michael Hakeem, Ph.D.
(London, Oxford University Press, 1942), pp. 871-872.)

FOR THE RECORD EVERYONE:

There are thos Humanist who try and rewrite American History, but they can't because the evidence is plain all over Washington DC and throughout the locations of history in the first 13 states.

Statements from Presidents, and the founding fathers speak volumes to the un correct history posted above concerning the founding Fathers. Below is the truth in American history rather they accept it or not, I could care less!

No one can deny that many of the founding fathers of the United States of America were men of deep religious convictions based in the Bible and their Christian faith in Jesus Christ. Of the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence, nearly half (24) held seminary or Bible school degrees.

These Christian quotes of the founding fathers will give you an overview of their strong moral and spiritual convictions which helped form the foundations of our nation and our government.

Also:

1st U.S. President

"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."
--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.

John Adams
2nd U.S. President and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be."
--Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9.

"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."
--Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

"The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever."
--Adams wrote this in a letter to his wife, Abigail, on July 3, 1776.

Thomas Jefferson
3rd U.S. President, Drafter and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

John Hancock
1st Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us."
--History of the United States of America, Vol. II, p. 229.

Benjamin Franklin
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Unites States Constitution

"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.

That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see;

But I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and more observed; especially as I do not perceive, that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure."
--Benjamin Franklin wrote this in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University on March 9, 1790.

Samuel Adams
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Father of the American Revolution

"And as it is our duty to extend our wishes to the happiness of the great family of man, I conceive that we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world that the rod of tyrants may be broken to pieces, and the oppressed made free again; that wars may cease in all the earth, and that the confusions that are and have been among nations may be overruled by promoting and speedily bringing on that holy and happy period when the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and all people everywhere willingly bow to the sceptre of Him who is Prince of Peace."
--As Governor of Massachusetts, Proclamation of a Day of Fast, March 20, 1797

James Madison
4th U.S. President

"Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ."
--America's Providential History, p. 93.

James Monroe
5th U.S. President

"When we view the blessings with which our country has been favored, those which we now enjoy, and the means which we possess of handing them down unimpaired to our latest posterity, our attention is irresistibly drawn to the source from whence they flow. Let us then, unite in offering our most grateful acknowledgements for these blessings to the Divine Author of All Good."
--Monroe made this statement in his 2nd Annual Message to Congress, November 16, 1818.

John Quincy Adams
6th U.S. President

"The hope of a Christian is inseparable from his faith. Whoever believes in the divine inspiration of the Holy Scriptures must hope that the religion of Jesus shall prevail throughout the earth. Never since the foundation of the world have the prospects of mankind been more encouraging to that hope than they appear to be at the present time. And may the associated distribution of the Bible proceed and prosper till the Lord shall have made 'bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God' (Isaiah 52:10)."
--Life of John Quincy Adams, p. 248.

William Penn
Founder of Pennsylvania

"I do declare to the whole world that we believe the Scriptures to contain a declaration of the mind and will of God in and to those ages in which they were written; being given forth by the Holy Ghost moving in the hearts of holy men of God; that they ought also to be read, believed, and fulfilled in our day; being used for reproof and instruction, that the man of God may be perfect. They are a declaration and testimony of heavenly things themselves, and, as such, we carry a high respect for them. We accept them as the words of God Himself."
--Treatise of the Religion of the Quakers, p. 355.

Roger Sherman
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and United States Constitution

"I believe that there is one only living and true God, existing in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, the same in substance equal in power and glory. That the scriptures of the old and new testaments are a revelation from God, and a complete rule to direct us how we may glorify and enjoy him. That God has foreordained whatsoever comes to pass, so as thereby he is not the author or approver of sin. That he creates all things, and preserves and governs all creatures and all their actions, in a manner perfectly consistent with the freedom of will in moral agents, and the usefulness of means. That he made man at first perfectly holy, that the first man sinned, and as he was the public head of his posterity, they all became sinners in consequence of his first transgression, are wholly indisposed to that which is good and inclined to evil, and on account of sin are liable to all the miseries of this life, to death, and to the pains of hell forever.

I believe that God having elected some of mankind to eternal life, did send his own Son to become man, die in the room and stead of sinners and thus to lay a foundation for the offer of pardon and salvation to all mankind, so as all may be saved who are willing to accept the gospel offer: also by his special grace and spirit, to regenerate, sanctify and enable to persevere in holiness, all who shall be saved; and to procure in consequence of their repentance and faith in himself their justification by virtue of his atonement as the only meritorious cause.

I believe a visible church to be a congregation of those who make a credible profession of their faith in Christ, and obedience to him, joined by the bond of the covenant.

I believe that the souls of believers are at their death made perfectly holy, and immediately taken to glory: that at the end of this world there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a final judgement of all mankind, when the righteous shall be publicly acquitted by Christ the Judge and admitted to everlasting life and glory, and the wicked be sentenced to everlasting punishment."
--The Life of Roger Sherman, pp. 272-273.

Benjamin Rush
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution

"The Gospel of Jesus Christ prescribes the wisest rules for just conduct in every situation of life. Happy they who are enabled to obey them in all situations!"
--The Autobiography of Benjamin Rush, pp. 165-166.

"Christianity is the only true and perfect religion, and that in proportion as mankind adopts its principles and obeys its precepts, they will be wise and happy."
--Essays, Literary, Moral, and Philosophical, published in 1798.

"I know there is an objection among many people to teaching children doctrines of any kind, because they are liable to be controverted. But let us not be wiser than our Maker.

If moral precepts alone could have reformed mankind, the mission of the Son of God into all the world would have been unnecessary. The perfect morality of the Gospel rests upon the doctrine which, though often controverted has never been refuted: I mean the vicarious life and death of the Son of God."
--Essays, Literary, Moral, and Philosophical, published in 1798.

John Witherspoon
Signer of the Declaration of Independence, Clergyman and President of Princeton University

"While we give praise to God, the Supreme Disposer of all events, for His interposition on our behalf, let us guard against the dangerous error of trusting in, or boasting of, an arm of flesh ... If your cause is just, if your principles are pure, and if your conduct is prudent, you need not fear the multitude of opposing hosts.

What follows from this? That he is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down profanity and immorality of every kind.

Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not to call him an enemy of his country."
--Sermon at Princeton University, "The Dominion of Providence over the Passions of Men," May 17, 1776.

Alexander Hamilton
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution

"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."
--Famous American Statesmen, p. 126.

Patrick Henry
Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."
--The Trumpet Voice of Freedom: Patrick Henry of Virginia, p. iii.

"The Bible ... is a book worth more than all the other books that were ever printed."
--Sketches of the Life and Character of Patrick Henry, p. 402.

John Jay
1st Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court and President of the American Bible Society

"By conveying the Bible to people thus circumstanced, we certainly do them a most interesting kindness. We thereby enable them to learn that man was originally created and placed in a state of happiness, but, becoming disobedient, was subjected to the degradation and evils which he and his posterity have since experienced.

The Bible will also inform them that our gracious Creator has provided for us a Redeemer, in whom all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; that this Redeemer has made atonement "for the sins of the whole world," and thereby reconciling the Divine justice with the Divine mercy has opened a way for our redemption and salvation; and that these inestimable benefits are of the free gift and grace of God, not of our deserving, nor in our power to deserve."
--In God We Trust—The Religious Beliefs and Ideas of the American Founding Fathers, p. 379.

"In forming and settling my belief relative to the doctrines of Christianity, I adopted no articles from creeds but such only as, on careful examination, I found to be confirmed by the Bible."
--American Statesman Series, p. 360.

Clarification: No one said they were not believers. Rather I suggested that most were Deists rather than Trinitarians. That is simple documented fact. Go back over your quotes and you hear God addressed, but Jesus less. Unitarian and Universalist views believe in one God, and see Jesus as a messenger but not a messiah. Jefferson and others wrote extensively of the danger of mixing religion and government. Jefferson btw was not a Unitarian, but once said he would be, had their been such a church at hand in his community. I think his affiliation was Episocopal, though he also wrote the democratic rules by which Baptists today conduct business. The Constitution protects religion from government and the need for that separation was very clear to a people who had left a nation where there was a state run religion, often to the exclusion of other beliefs and faiths. It also protects government from the excesses of religion.

Of course other founders were trinitarian Christians, and they lent their perspective to the creation of our Constitution. That is why the Baptist minister endorsed the concept of separation between church and state as I quoted above.

To say our nation was founded on Christian or even Biblical principles is an overstatement. Rather it was founded upon a reasoned philosophical movement built on the idea that there are such a thing as The Rights of Man. Incidentally even Jesus argued for that separation, suggesting to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's etc.

History shows me that wars and mass killings result from the blending of religion and government. As Sarah Palin said, "Thanks, but no thanks."

Labrys' above post is most interesting. The rest of this is completely off topic for this particular group. There can be no useful purpose in this for anyone.